On Game and Men’s Rights

The manosphere consists of the two main factions: game/PUA groups and men’s rights groups.

There was (and probably still is) some animosity between the two groups. Game/PUAs often viewed the MR as male feminists who blame the government and feminist laws on their own failings instead of working to improve their own lives. On the other hand, MRAs often viewed game/PUAs as creepy, childish, shallow, selfish, etc.

However, both groups seems to merge more and more into each other as more and more important game bloggers support MR goals (Roissy, Roosh, etc.). This occurred mainly due to the drunk sex = rape laws and divorce laws which affected game/PUAs, thus making them more sympathetic to MR causes. (Since the Game/PUA sphere is greater than the MR sphere by at least 10 to 1, and maybe even 100 to 1, game blogs are an excellent tool to spread MR issues affecting young men. )

This process should continue and these two groups should be connected, since they have deep inner similarities:

1. Both emanate from male frustrations. The quintessential PUA/Game is a man before marriage trying to navigate the modern sexual market place, while the quintessential MRA is a divorced father trying to navigate the family court system.

2. Both are extremely politically incorrect, to say that you are MR, or PUA/Game, supporter will not help get a job/make you popular/etc. (Infact, both MR and PUA/Game site were declared as ‘hate sites’.)

3. Both groups consists of men who are basically trying to get more control over their lives and their environment in the face of rapid changes to our culture, declining social power and freedoms and the falling apart of the institute of family.

The men’s movement should stand united. Our opposition is too well organized, enjoys too much government funding, gets too much academic support and enjoy too much public support for us to fight among ourselves.

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18 Responses to On Game and Men’s Rights

  1. We can have a lot in common, but can we really stand united?

    Women can naturally play the victim, but it hurts a man’s pride to do so. In particular, it’s too easy to view MRA types as losers.

    My own inclination is to express my own sympathies with the manosphere by writing frankly about social dynamics and demanding respect in my personal life. But it feels awkward to portray myself as part of a vulnerable group needing our rights protected.

    Just thinking aloud, really.

    • amazing0 says:

      i undersatand how you feel.

      i think that feeling comes from a few areas, that need to be delt with first , in order for men to attain eqaul rights

      1. sex…. it really comes down to that….. sex is a huge factor in why men are reluctent to do anything that ,may portray them in a bad light to women publicly.

      mens logic is compromised by sex, becuase of the false, but sometimes true rhetoric that you should always keep a women happy and give her special treatment to get laid.

      sex is really one of the reasons why men believe or at least tolerate openly sexist ideas or laws such as…. rasing little boys with the idea of paying for womens dinners….. or the violence agaisnt womens act. (the most sexist law in the last 60 years)…

      sex is key… its partly way men are affriad to speak out… or some men firmly believe that this is how things should be….

      many of the men who think that sexist social and legal acts against men is okay or “the way things are sopposed to be”… they often dont realize that sex is a primary factor in the coloring of there judgment.

      the other imporating thing…. how we are rasied.

      most people raised to be catholic, or muslim…. become catholic or muslim.

      most little boys rasied to give women huge amounts of special treatment….. will give women huge amounts of special treatment. (then the girl will sleep with the guy that treats her like crap… very often this happans)

      how we are raised heavlily influanced how we think and sociaity its self……. and due to the fact that womem have manipulatd the court system they now have 90% of child rights… with men having 10% of the rights but 50% of the burdans

      due to males natrual tendency to take pity on women, and to make them happy. (sex)….. men have allowed women to have almost all child rights…. women honestly believe that 9 months of labor and birth… entitles them to almost all child rights….. the problem is the also believe that men should bare at least 50% of the burdan,,, but tolerate only having 10% of the rights…. thus this is were sexism occures.

      and due to the fact that most women are sexist… and most women dont understand women or men…. we have women raising little boys to be sexist agsint them selves and there own gender… and to give women “respect” and as much special treatment as they want.

      something needs to be done now… while there is still time.

      men need to be awere of what is happening, and why…. and how to fix it.

      men need to be aware that giving women special treatment does not get them laid…. they need to be aware they have been discrimnated agsint but trained to beleive it was right…. and they need to know that speaking out about it is safe, if you make some girls mad… who cares…. thinkt about the huge number of women in the world that you can still go to.

      i think sex robots are the key…. i know its extream… but once men have all the sex they want with hot girls…. they wont tolerate womens bull shyt any more… with sex bots… the demand for sex will drop like a rock… women will have far less attention… men dont give women special treatment any more…. the market for real women will be much more easy, due to less men paying attention to women…. women will be forced to give us eqaul rights, becuase we wont care what they think,, women will have to treat us better or we just wont put up with them…..

      eventauly womens behavual patterns will change… so they are more mature… and not sexist any more…. once women grow up, and the laws are changed… men can focus on eqaulity for every one.

  2. Peregrine John says:

    So do the manly thing and leave aside the feelings. Q: What sort of derangement does it take to equate a demand to end injustice with playing a ball-less victim? A: I don’t know, but it’s pretty common, and only applies to men. It’s the sort of false moral high ground in which men will, in the name of being Real Men, lie down and become doormats and slaves.

    It’s also worth remembering that what is being fought for here is not “merely” justice, but also the fabric of society.

    • Truth says:

      i agree with you…. its more then just the fabric of society… it could be the the very evoultion and fate of our species.

      i will not lie down in the face of massive discrimnation agaisnt me in the “land of the free”

      as a white male i was born in a time of almost purly discrimnation agsint me….. i am in the only group that is not protectted by most “eqaul rights” rogainzations.

      i am also in the the only group that has almost no protection by any laws that protect so called “eqaul rights”

      my main concern is mens rights…. it is my gender… i will not allow my gender to be nrain washed as slaves for women… the weaker sex.

      women, in general, are engaging in subcontious psycologcial warfair to turn men into slaves… from brain washing little boys to pay for womens dinner, or pull out there chairs…. to men not having almost any child rights but having 50% of the burdan.

      the 2 main keys i see here are… 1.. sex… and 2… how we are rasied.

      this is going to be tricky to solve… i think i have a solution.. an extream one.. but one that will be the most effective

      sex bots… 100% real looking and acting ones.

      i know one thing.,.. men will follow the sex…. it is our weakness… but it will become our strength.

      look at porn….. 90% of men with any internet connection looks at it.

      now think of totaly realatic sex bots… looks, moves, talks, just like the real thing.

      men will flock to them….. women will becomes usless to any man that has accese to one.

      once the demand for sex lowers…. other men will start getting laid with regular girls more… women will start treating men better.

      as men have more sex… they will becomes less tolerate of sexism agsint them.

      as men becomes less tolerate of sexism asgint them.. we will put a stop to it.

      as men gain eqaul rights and empowerment….we will becomes even less tolerate of womens typcialy selfish or rude natures…. women will natrualy give us more sex ,a dn treat us better…. that will further lower the value of sex…. and further make men start to care more about how women are treating US

      evetualy men will attain eqaulity.. and as we are more nobel and honourable then women… im sure will let them keep there equaiity to…. even though i suspect we might see women paying for mens dinners in the future… becuase of sex bots lowering the demand for women by massive amounts… they may start to give us special treatment…. but we can us point out to men that it would be good for mutaul eqaulity if they pay for them slves..

      hopfuly… in 30 years… men and women will be paying for them slves.. or each other reguraly.. as we qaulifly each other mutautly…. thus having perfect eqauility in terms of treatment, laws, and respect wise. (obviosuly its silly to think that women will ever be as strong as us… but i mean eqaulity as in mutual respect for each other as humans.)

  3. samplexus says:

    Of course we can stand united if we are all aware of the bigger picture. There are going to be little squibs (Paul Elam Vs. Heartiste/Frost) but in the end we all recognize that there are things happening that are bigger than our individual sex lives.

    I’m interested in teaching the next generation – a feminine daughter and a masculine, confident son as they will have to navigate this changing culture too.

  4. B.R. says:

    The Men’s Rights crowd *is* comprised of male feminists. They want *equality* of the sexes, and at heart, are white knights. At least that’s the impression I get from some parts of it, especially Reddit Men’s Rights – eg, see this episode http://www.manwomanmyth.com/mens-rights-movement/reddit-mens-rights-sinks-even-lower/ Instead of acknowledging women for what they are, they seem intent on wailing about equality, and hoping that women become the female equivalent of nice guys. I like the Heartiste approach of seeing women as they are.

    That said, I did just visit Reddit MR and found a lot of interesting links.

    Maybe MRs and PUAs could draft a platform upon which both could agree. Things like:
    *No alimony for unilateral divorce
    *Mandatory paternity testing for a father to be listed on the birth certificate
    *Consent issued in an intoxicated state is valid
    *Willfully false rape accusations carry the same penalty as rape
    *Make child support harder to obtain – if the man was told she was using contraceptives, he’s no longer on the hook for child support
    *Equal custody of kids in a divorce by default
    *No affirmative action for women, no Title IX, etc.
    *And, while it’s not public policy, No White Knighting

    I’m sure there’s more that we could all agree on, eg laws regarding sexual harassment.

  5. B.R. says:

    Meant to add to “*Consent issued in an intoxicated state is valid,” that there might be limit placed on this as to how intoxicated she can be and still offer valid consent.

  6. Understand the problem says:

    The reality of it all is that we as men AREN’T asking for the government to come in and help us, as women have done. We are asking for the OPPOSITE of that–that is, we want the government out of our lives and we want an end to all of these “equality” laws that come at our expense.

    Both of these groups are very libertarian at their core. We essentially want more control over our own lives, and we are sick of violence against us. When I say “violence,” I do not mean that we are victims of overt physical acts by aggressors that go unpunished by the law. The violence committed against us is actually the result of laws that overstep what the role of government was originally meant to be: protection of property rights and personal liberty. They forcibly take our wealth through taxes, and then use our own money to turn society against us.

    To end this coercion against us, we must tell the government to back off. All people are NOT created equal beyond a few inalienable rights. It is precisely this fact that allows for the great diversity and beauty found in nature. Men are men, women are women–this will never change no matter how much the government strives to push their “egalitarian” agenda upon us and eliminate gender roles, morphing us into one androgynous “thing.”

    Government is nothing but another man’s invention. It is not some all-knowing, all-seeing being whose laws are conceived through some unknown procedure (though all of the red-tape and pork may make it seem that way at times, haha!). Who are these bureaucrats but other men looking to carry out some social experiment on a grand scale? The problems our society faces currently will not be resolved until we drastically limit the power of the government, for right now the government is picking winners and losers in the game of life–and we, the men, are the losers.

  7. B.R. says:

    Here’s an example of what I mentioned, about MR guys being male feminists:

    There’s a Reddit MR thread on a Cosmo article telling women to be vague about their plans for going out, when talking to a guy they’re dating. Or, as one Reddit poster said, “How to make your boyfriend think you’re cheating on him.”

    Of course, there’s a chorus of posters saying, “wait, isn’t this what PUAs do?” And then lambasting them. They don’t stop to consider whether the sexes are you know, different, mandating different behavior for each one. Or that they’d respond differently to the same form of manipulation. MRs are pissed about this behavior from Cosmo/women, and GOD DAMN IT, THEY’RE NOT GONNA TAKE IT ANY MORE! What do they do? The same shit they’ve been doing, the stuff that doesn’t work. Complaining about mistreatment from women.

    I say take effective action instead of pouting about it. You’re a man, bitch a little if you like, but don’t just sit there and take it. Take matters into your own hands and make the best of it.

    http://www.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/rhir5/oryou_could_try_being_honest_just_a_thought_cosmo/

  8. Wolf says:

    You hit on a great point, PUAs and MRs share a lot in common, but there are distinctions. Mainly, a good PUA doesn’t let himself get dicked over by a woman. MRs already have, and they’re bitter about it, and envious of the PUAs. But they also want to learn from them. I noticed this convergence with a strong natural who’d recently discovered game and who already had an MR sticker on his vehicle calling to men sick of being demeaned in the media. A strong, confident man who has success with women immediately notices the way men are demonized by the media and society. PUAs and MRs share more in common than they think, because only they recognize the true nature of women and how society favors them.

    Based on many conversations with women, I maintain that women don’t want equality. They don’t want to be discriminated against at work, in education, in the legal system, etc. They don’t want to be harassed, or leered at. Women want to have the door held for them, they want their drink paid for, they want the man to be courteous, they want a man to make decisions and lead, to be a “Real” man. They want to be treated like a lady, not as just an “equal.” (Women everywhere are nodding their heads.) What this means though in real terms is that women want special privileges. All those niceties of chivalry were concessions of the patriarchy to an unprivileged class. Men held all the power and treating a lady specially was the breadcrumbs. But now women want equal power PLUS the niceties. And no woman is ever going to stand up someday and say “Women, we have achieved all we wanted from the women’s rights movement and more, and now it’s time to stop pushing for laws more favorable to us, or courts less biased towards us, and start expecting men to treat us as equals.” It’s never going to happen; change favorable to men will not come from women. It will come from men. There is a coming backlash. Only men will recognize that the system goes too far and demand and push for the tide to reverse back towards the mean. MR groups are this reaction, the counter-revolution to the revolution.

  9. PUA says:

    Pua actually led me to be aware of the men’s movement.

    It should be noted that PUA & the men’s movement is not about gaining power and dominating the opposite sex.

    I believe our purpose is to strike a balance of harmony between the males & females. Something society hasn’t had in a very long time.

  10. jbamai says:

    The irony is that men’s rights groups are going to need GAME in order to get thier intiatives out there. Game is just a tool PUA have used to get women. Men’s rights groups are leery of game and they have proven by their actions that they don’t have any as they sit comfortably behind computer screens typing away instead of getting some type of legislation passed.

    Maybe they need a more comprehensive definition of game:

    http://justbeamanaboutit.wordpress.com/2012/03/30/what-is-game-a-comprehensive-definition/

  11. Ian Ironwood says:

    I would say this is an overly simplistic view of the Manosphere. There are more facets of the Manosphere than this — the OMGs (Old Married Guys), the MGTOW, the Married Game folks like Athol Kay, masculine culture blogs . . . the Manosphere is Vast.

    I so declare that all blogs and websites that focus on male issues and interests, regardless of the source, to be part of the Manosphere. Maybe not a big part . . . but we all have a role to play in the revalorization of masculinity for the 21st century.

  12. Gaynell Peto says:

    I like this website very much, Its a real nice position to read and get info. “If you can learn from hard knocks, you can also learn from soft touches.” by Carolyn Kenmore.

  13. gr says:

    I am sort of in the crossroads between the two worlds, getting into MRA and having repented of PUA. I don’t see PUA as a good thing though I do see one redeeming feature. It teaches boys basic truths that they didn’t get because they didn’t have salient father figures to help boys develop certain traits to become men. But PUA is a twisted version of becoming a ‘man’ and I see for that reason why MRA are not teaming up with PUA. It takes more than a cock and ability to get pussy to be a man. Even having a job doesn’t cut it. Too bad there haven’t been more salient fathers, or the community of PUAs would be superfluous. But nice guys were doing the right thing until society broke the contract. And marriage was a contract. Before anyone complains about not getting pussy- realize that marriage is what set us apart from the baboons. All* (that I am aware of) civilizations that stood the test of time practiced it. Why? Because it made so called ‘beta’ males (I hate that word- people who know how to hack the system are no more alpha in the biological sense than those who don’t)- so called betas were encouraged and motivated to be economically productive for their women and children. Without this institution we get a bunch of parasites like PUAs. I am not dissing the people. I was one and I learned some things although I think people are constantly misattributing the reasons for their results. It basically comes down to focus, perseverance (both in a given seduction and in general), flirtation skills (by different names), awareness of basic body language, and development of self- that result in more lays. Not esoteric bullshit or technical knowledge, as they would have you believe. I am not dissing the members. They need a certain kind of power that the insights give them, and right, many MRA are frustrated.

    IT takes more to be an elder or a leader than fucking a lot of pussy, so maybe in an unequal way, MRA can be the elders as they are more responsible by far, and PUAs can be the junior partners. That’s the only way I can see it working. With one occasional exception- PUAs have nothing to give or teach MRAs and only affect the image of the whole movement. The one exception is some knowledge of how the game is played today. Not “game” as it were but knowledge of the system of things. The contract system was also good, although now dead. Now here’s the contract system- men purchased – had a RIGHT to the female reproductive system (among other things) and could demand it, which is why adultery was looked down on more when committed by women. And why women were not allowed to get fat without shame. Men never sold their reproductive systems although adultery in that case is also bad. Women purchased the man’s labor and muscle, and had a right to this, could demand and insist on it, which is why deadbeat men were looked down on. Sounds good and fair right? Even your “beta” males got constant pussy! And produced economically and supported civilization!!! You see!!! All major religions and civilizations endorse this model because it works for everybody! And we all got the benefit of the riches of children and communities. What was wrong?

    Suddenly, feminism comes crashing, and only some 60 or so years ago. I am unclear if 1st wave feminism ushered in anything bad. That is really unpc to say and I can only wonder. But definitely 2nd wave. The system crashed, and now PUAs want to just milk it. Well they are helping bring down or at least erode the foundations of civilization. They are really cuckolding MRAs. It is not that MRAs are frustrated because they are sexless. The human doesn’t need sex so badly. They are frustrated by betrayal, etc. But why PUAs incense them is that PUAs are colluding with the government-as-provider to women and committing psychological adultery and cuckolding towards the more MRA type men. They see this and it is like salt in their faces. How can they unite? It is not so much the frustration by itself as the humiliation of cuckolding from parasites, for what has PUA given the world? What we see is a type of regression towards pre-civilization stone age type relationship world, with ‘alphas’ and ‘betas’ and ‘omega’s and economic collapse, and they are not even true alphas. they are more like alphas because they are nerds. Actually I feel I have the same power but I choose not to use it. I impressed a few acclaimed PUAs one time.

    How can they unite? Notwithstanding the whole issue of MRA humiliation, for the sake of argument, even if the secular MRAs turned to the dark side and embraced Seductionism, you still have a lot of religious, moral based MRA people.

    I think there can be some cross-pollination of ideas and support for each other on a personal level- we are all men after all, and we know our own. The elder men can support wayward PUAs as mentors and such, and kids can teach the fathers something of the new technology and new world, but oil and water they can never mix as far as a movement is concerned, my .02.

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  15. amazing0@att.net says:

    i undersatand how you feel.

    i think that feeling comes from a few areas, that need to be delt with first , in order for men to attain eqaul rights.

    1. sex…. it really comes down to that….. sex is a huge factor in why men are reluctent to do anything that ,may portray them in a bad light to women publicly.

    mens logic is compromised by sex, becuase of the false, but sometimes true rhetoric that you should always keep a women happy and give her special treatment to get laid.

    sex is really one of the reasons why men believe or at least tolerate openly sexist ideas or laws such as…. rasing little boys with the idea of paying for womens dinners….. or the violence agaisnt womens act. (the most sexist law in the last 60 years)…

    sex is key… its partly way men are affriad to speak out… or some men firmly believe that this is how things should be….

    many of the men who think that sexist social and legal acts against men is okay or “the way things are sopposed to be”… they often dont realize that sex is a primary factor in the coloring of there judgment.

    the other imporating thing…. how we are rasied.

    most people raised to be catholic, or muslim…. become catholic or muslim.

    most little boys rasied to give women huge amounts of special treatment….. will give women huge amounts of special treatment. (then the girl will sleep with the guy that treats her like crap… very often this happans)

    how we are raised heavlily influanced how we think and sociaity its self……. and due to the fact that womem have manipulatd the court system they now have 90% of child rights… with men having 10% of the rights but 50% of the burdans

    due to males natrual tendency to take pity on women, and to make them happy. (sex)….. men have allowed women to have almost all child rights…. women honestly believe that 9 months of labor and birth… entitles them to almost all child rights….. the problem is the also believe that men should bare at least 50% of the burdan,,, but tolerate only having 10% of the rights…. thus this is were sexism occures.

    and due to the fact that most women are sexist… and most women dont understand women or men…. we have women raising little boys to be sexist agsint them selves and there own gender… and to give women “respect” and as much special treatment as they want.

    something needs to be done now… while there is still time.

    men need to be awere of what is happening, and why…. and how to fix it.

    men need to be aware that giving women special treatment does not get them laid…. they need to be aware they have been discrimnated agsint but trained to beleive it was right…. and they need to know that speaking out about it is safe, if you make some girls mad… who cares…. thinkt about the huge number of women in the world that you can still go to.

    i think sex robots are the key…. i know its extream… but once men have all the sex they want with hot girls…. they wont tolerate womens bull shyt any more… with sex bots… the demand for sex will drop like a rock… women will have far less attention… men dont give women special treatment any more…. the market for real women will be much more easy, due to less men paying attention to women…. women will be forced to give us eqaul rights, becuase we wont care what they think,, women will have to treat us better or we just wont put up with them…..

    eventauly womens behavual patterns will change… so they are more mature… and not sexist any more…. once women grow up, and the laws are changed… men can focus on eqaulity for every one.

  16. truth of flame says:

    i understand how you feel
    i think that feeling comes from a few areas, that need to be delt with first , in order for men to attain eqaul rights

    1. sex…. it really comes down to that….. sex is a huge factor in why men are reluctent to do anything that ,may portray them in a bad light to women publicly.

    mens logic is compromised by sex, becuase of the false, but sometimes true rhetoric that you should always keep a women happy and give her special treatment to get laid.

    sex is really one of the reasons why men believe or at least tolerate openly sexist ideas or laws such as…. rasing little boys with the idea of paying for womens dinners….. or the violence agaisnt womens act. (the most sexist law in the last 60 years)…

    sex is key… its partly way men are affriad to speak out… or some men firmly believe that this is how things should be….

    many of the men who think that sexist social and legal acts against men is okay or “the way things are sopposed to be”… they often dont realize that sex is a primary factor in the coloring of there judgment.

    the other imporating thing…. how we are rasied.

    most people raised to be catholic, or muslim…. become catholic or muslim.

    most little boys rasied to give women huge amounts of special treatment….. will give women huge amounts of special treatment. (then the girl will sleep with the guy that treats her like crap… very often this happans)

    how we are raised heavlily influanced how we think and sociaity its self……. and due to the fact that womem have manipulatd the court system they now have 90% of child rights… with men having 10% of the rights but 50% of the burdans

    due to males natrual tendency to take pity on women, and to make them happy. (sex)….. men have allowed women to have almost all child rights…. women honestly believe that 9 months of labor and birth… entitles them to almost all child rights….. the problem is the also believe that men should bare at least 50% of the burdan,,, but tolerate only having 10% of the rights…. thus this is were sexism occures.

    and due to the fact that most women are sexist… and most women dont understand women or men…. we have women raising little boys to be sexist agsint them selves and there own gender… and to give women “respect” and as much special treatment as they want.

    something needs to be done now… while there is still time.

    men need to be awere of what is happening, and why…. and how to fix it.

    men need to be aware that giving women special treatment does not get them laid…. they need to be aware they have been discrimnated agsint but trained to beleive it was right…. and they need to know that speaking out about it is safe, if you make some girls mad… who cares…. thinkt about the huge number of women in the world that you can still go to.

    i think sex robots are the key…. i know its extream… but once men have all the sex they want with hot girls…. they wont tolerate womens bull shyt any more… with sex bots… the demand for sex will drop like a rock… women will have far less attention… men dont give women special treatment any more…. the market for real women will be much more easy, due to less men paying attention to women…. women will be forced to give us eqaul rights, becuase we wont care what they think,, women will have to treat us better or we just wont put up with them…..

    eventauly womens behavual patterns will change… so they are more mature… and not sexist any more…. once women grow up, and the laws are changed… men can focus on eqaulity for every one.

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